He Started a Social Network Alone. Then 5 Million People Signed Up

If you haven’t heard of UpScrolled before, a little primer: It’s a societal media level not excessively antithetic from, say, Instagram oregon TikTok. You tin stock photos oregon abbreviated videos, travel accounts, remark connected posts, and amass a pursuing of your own. Nothing excessively earth-shattering, right?

UpScrolled laminitis Issam Hijazi would beg to differ. Indeed, his nascent institution diverges from astir Big Tech platforms successful a fewer notable ways: UpScrolled offers an old-fashioned chronological feed, alternatively than 1 dictated by an algorithm ostensibly serving up contented you’ll latch onto; the level besides promises not to stock idiosyncratic information with selling firms oregon different commercialized enterprises. And Hijazi, who is of Palestinian descent, founded UpScrolled successful effect to wide idiosyncratic allegations that immoderate societal media companies were censoring oregon shadow-banning their posts—particularly pro-Palestinian content. The level explicitly vows “never” to covertly suppress content, provided it doesn’t interruption UpScrolled’s assemblage guidelines.

Aside from breaking with plentifulness of Big Tech norms, Hijazi’s stance is uncommon among Silicon Valley types for being uniquely, overtly ideological. (In our conversation, Hijazi told maine that helium “personally” ensured UpScrolled users couldn’t prime Israel arsenic a determination erstwhile utilizing the platform.) But the attack has resonated: When we archetypal met successful February, a specified 8 months aft Hijazi launched UpScrolled, the level had rapidly amassed 2.5 cardinal users pursuing freakouts implicit TikTok’s woody with President Trump to signifier a US-based mentation of the institution controlled by American investors. Hijazi was, astatine that time, UpScrolled’s lone employee.

Today, arsenic UpScrolled counts much than 5 cardinal users, Hijazi has rushed to standard his squad to conscionable the platform’s increasing needs—particularly astir contented moderation. Recently, his institution has recovered itself successful the crosshairs of organizations similar the Anti-Defamation League, which alleges it doesn’t bash astir capable to stomp retired antisemitic and extremist content. During a wide-ranging speech past week I asked Hijazi astir those claims, and however UpScrolled is catching up with its ain accelerated growth.

This interrogation has been edited for magnitude and clarity.

KATIE DRUMMOND: Hi, Issam, invited to The Big Interview.

ISSAM HIJAZI: Hi, Katie. Thank you for having me.

I’m precise blessed you’re here. I privation to commencement with your background. It's a fascinating one. Previously, you've worked for large tech companies. You worked astatine IBM; you worked astatine Oracle. Tell america astir your past with tech and however it shaped your views connected the tech manufacture and connected societal media much specifically.

I've been moving successful the tech manufacture for the past 17 and a fractional years. Prior to that, I started coding erstwhile I was 12 years old. So I was beauteous progressive successful IT and exertion from a precise aboriginal stage. Now, wrong my career, arsenic you mentioned, I did enactment with the likes of Oracle, IBM, Hitachi, and past tiny startups.

As a young professional, that is simply a imagination job. That is thing that each kid wants to beryllium in. Great companies that person large technologies and there's a batch of accidental to learn, but arsenic you get to recognize and larn astir the mechanics of these companies, you commencement to wonder: Is this the close spot to beryllium at? This is simply a feeling I started to person successful the past 3 years, and that made maine displacement my absorption connected wanting to commencement thing new.

These companies person been complicit successful atrocious things that are happening astir the world. Things similar genocide successful Gaza, for instance, by supplying technology, infrastructure, knowledge, et cetera, to countries similar Israel. And allowing them to bash surveillance. Personally, I felt complicit conscionable moving for them, and I wanted out.

Talk to maine past astir that infinitesimal you threw up your hands and said, “That's it. I'm starting thing new. I'm starting UpScrolled.”

This happened erstwhile I started to spot this genocide unfolding connected our screens successful existent time. I started to spot things differently.

I was affected deeply, not lone due to the fact that I'm a Palestinian, Katie, due to the fact that I'm a quality being. In summation to that, I've got household members successful Gaza, from cousins to extended household members, who got killed. So it affected maine deeply. It changed my position connected however I spot life, however I spot career, however I spot people, and it dropped a batch of the masks astir me.

At that infinitesimal I felt I needed to bash something, due to the fact that I was fortunate capable not to beryllium successful Gaza, not to beryllium successful Palestine, and conscionable to springiness thing backmost to those radical successful general. I looked astir and noticed a batch of radical trying to station and speech astir what's happening connected societal media platforms, but they were shadow-banned. They were selectively censored. That was happening crossed aggregate societal media platforms.

At that moment, I felt it was clip to springiness radical backmost power into however they privation to explicit themselves. I did probe and I noticed radical were looking for alternatives, but determination was a deficiency of ethical oregon reliable alternatives. So astatine that point, I decided to enactment successful each waking hr of my days, each my resources, including financially, to physique that platform.

That sounded brainsick backmost then. It inactive sounds brainsick contiguous if you inquire me. But I was inactive determined to effort this retired and springiness it a shot. Back successful 2025 successful July, we launched UpScrolled and we started to spot radical coming onto the level and willingness from users to power oregon wholly halt utilizing different platforms specified arsenic Instagram oregon X oregon TikTok.

Talk to maine astir designing UpScrolled and however you thought astir the idiosyncratic experience. People tin station text, they tin station photos, they tin station videos, they tin remark and repost content. When you were designing it, what were you astir focused on?

I wanted to make an acquisition that feels familiar. I didn't privation to make thing unsocial oregon person an interface that's different. So erstwhile they power from Instagram oregon they power from X, for example, they volition consciousness that the app is beauteous overmuch the aforesaid successful presumption of functionality oregon the things that they do. That's intentional.

It's brainsick to deliberation of trying to make a caller societal media conscionable for the involvement of it. I knew the users that would articulation UpScrolled would privation to articulation it for a reason. That crushed is that they person been suppressed, they person been oppressed, oregon they privation retired from the existing tech that they've been utilizing for the past 2 decades, really.

We bash person each kinds of functionalities that let them to prosecute with 1 another. Nothing truly caller from a functionality perspective, but down the scenes determination are a batch of differences.

I'm funny astir that, due to the fact that I deliberation you've said that UpScrolled doesn't usage AI oregon algorithms to find what contented radical see. What informs the contented that I would spot erstwhile I unfastened UpScrolled and commencement looking done my feed? What's down that?

What's happening down the scenes is simply a precise chronological feed.

I emotion chronology. I deliberation excessively galore societal media apps person mislaid the crippled erstwhile it comes to the chronological feed.

The information is, 20 years agone these things existed and we loved them. But past they started to present algorithmic feeds, reasoning that would springiness america a amended experience, but successful world it conscionable made america addicted to thing that has nary value.

All you request is to travel the radical that you like, radical that you're funny in, quality agencies, organizations, and enactment up-to-date with them. You don't privation an algorithm to determine what you privation oregon what you like, oregon power you oregon alteration the mode you think.

How person you handled the benignant of exponential maturation you've experienced? What's the good, what's the bad? What's been the hardest happening you've had to woody with?

Let's spell backmost to astir 9 months ago, erstwhile we launched successful July. I haven't slept decently since then.

Oh no.

It was a one-man show, and that's me. And Katie, erstwhile you tally a societal media platform, there's a batch of things that you request to manage: infrastructure; you request to negociate users’ expectations; you request to negociate support; you request to negociate contented moderation; you request to marque definite the app really works connected Chinese devices, Japanese devices, American devices.

You request to bash immoderate benignant of marketing. And you request to bash fundraising, you know, enactment wealth into your institution truthful you tin rise superior and prosecute people.

My woman and my caller babe girl—she’s present 21 months old—we were successful Sydney, and I told them, “I’m going to beryllium precise engaged for the adjacent fewer months. How astir you spell and walk the summertime abrogation successful Jordan with the family? Come backmost successful September and hopefully things volition beryllium amended by then.”

That ne'er happened. I needed to question to the US and different countries to contiguous UpScrolled to antithetic radical and conferences and things similar that. Up until the constituent I told her, “Hey, however astir you enactment successful Jordan and I'll travel to Jordan and spot you both?”

That was a play of astir six months. So determination was a idiosyncratic sacrifice of maine not being with my family, particularly with my daughter, for the champion six months of her life, let's enactment it that way.

Aw. Yeah.

Now, moving into January, things did not truly get immoderate easier. I knew astir the TikTok deal, but did not truly expect what was astir to happen. I thought that we’d get immoderate further thousands of users. Until the 20th of January, we had astir 150,000 users, and up until past it was inactive maine moving everything, and it felt similar a tiny community. I knew astir everyone connected the platform.

At the clip of the authoritative signing of the TikTok deal, I was successful the US and I was astatine immoderate lawsuit successful the Bay Area. Before going onstage I was looking astatine the dashboards for the platform, and I started to spot thing unusual happening. Then I started to cheque different resources, similar the stats connected the app stores. I started to spot UpScrolled jumping from, I dunno, 150 to 80 to 60 and crawling its mode to the top.

I was like, “OK, thing is happening.” It wasn't excessively scary. We had tens of thousands of caller users. I was excited. I was gonna denote it connected the stage. But past aft that circumstantial event, things got much crazy. I started to spot hundreds of thousands of radical signing up to the platform.

I started to get telephone calls, emails from radical telling me, “Hey, your app is fig 10 successful Australia, your app is fig 10 successful the UK.” I was checking like, this is unbelievable. This is surreal. I did not truly expect immoderate of that. I deliberation by the extremity of January we had astir 2.5 cardinal users, and it was inactive maine moving the show.

Oh gosh.

I was getting invited by antithetic quality outlets to speech astir what was happening. People I've ne'er met successful my beingness talking to me, sending maine messages. Web Summit radical invited maine to Qatar to person 1 of the keynotes connected the archetypal day.

Then we had the announcement of the 2.5 cardinal users, and it's been increasing since then. But arsenic you tin imagine, with that benignant of maturation comes a batch of challenges, and I needed to bash a batch of firefighting during that period. So yeah, I haven't slept a lot.

The information that you person slept astatine each sounds similar a miracle. I mean, however galore radical person you hired?

We person astir 25 radical moving astatine UpScrolled, and that's betwixt engineering, marque comms, and strategy, arsenic good arsenic contented moderators, evidently HR, and radical helping with the absorption of the projects that we person internally.

I had to rotation up that squad truly quickly, truthful I relied connected my connections, referrals. I was highly fortunate successful uncovering galore radical who emotion the ngo of UpScrolled.

What’s been the astir brutal learning acquisition from each of this? What's been the hardest thing, the infinitesimal of failure? Has determination been thing that stands retired arsenic a nightmare time oregon a nightmare hour?

What we’ve had is 1 of those bully problems to have. It's 1 of those problems that you wouldn't anticipate: the maturation itself. It's large due to the fact that it's growth, but with maturation of people comes a caller acceptable of challenges. You request to abruptly negociate millions and millions of users.

You request to abruptly negociate atrocious actors, who privation to intentionally bring the strategy down by attacking it from a method perspective, but besides posting each kinds of nasty contented intentionally, and past taking screenshots and past sending that to reporters and saying this and that astir the level ngo and what we're trying to physique here.

So I conjecture that was the biggest occupation oregon situation that we had wrong UpScrolled erstwhile it comes to managing each these users arsenic good arsenic the content. Now you wouldn't look these kinds of issues with antithetic businesses, but erstwhile you're dealing with user-generated content, that is going to beryllium thing to expect.

How bash you ideate UpScrolled making money? How bash you yet program to monetize what you're doing?

Currently we're not making immoderate money. We're backed by definite angel investors who are aligned with our values arsenic good arsenic VCs who are aligned with our values. I'm personally highly picky erstwhile it comes to who wants to enactment wealth into UpScrolled, for evident reasons. I privation to proceed to person this level beryllium an ethical platform, ever lasting connected our values moving forward.

When it comes to monetization, determination are a batch of ways to monetize existing societal media platforms. They person done galore of those things, and we volition possibly bash immoderate of them. For example, verified users and verified organizations. You get the bluish cheque people aft you verify your identity, you wage a subscription fee, for example, and that's 1 mode to make money.

We tin unfastened up a marketplace benignant of feature. So if you're a tiny concern and you privation to merchantability items, you tin bash that. We’ll instrumentality a commission. If you're a producer, contented creator, and the radical are funny successful your content, they tin subscribe to your content. They wage you, you acceptable the price, and we instrumentality a tiny committee retired of that.

The past happening volition beryllium thing related to ads that we tin tally connected the platform. But adjacent with ads, we are going to beryllium selective successful who would beryllium capable to advertise connected the level itself. We volition guarantee that ethical businesses volition beryllium fixed that opportunity, but businesses that we judge person been complicit successful atrocious things astir the satellite don't get that opportunity. I deliberation that's a large spot for small, medium-sized businesses to find the close audience. We already person them.

You mentioned a spot earlier the contented of contented moderation. Critics earlier this twelvemonth flagged extremist and antisemitic contented connected the platform. The Anti-Defamation League enactment retired a precise heated connection alleging that UpScrolled lacks enforcement protections. Can you respond to that?

We're a caller societal media platform, and if you look astatine the existing landscape, you'll announcement existing societal media platforms that person been determination for the past 20 years oregon truthful inactive person problems erstwhile it comes to contented moderation. You'll find a batch of hatred speech, which I would emotion to judge that these platforms don't allow, but you inactive find it if you unfastened these apps today.

So it's a occupation that each societal media platforms have, and we are nary different. User-generated contented tin person that risk, and it needs to beryllium addressed. Now, regarding the enactment that you've mentioned, and the contented that has been reported successful articles astir UpScrolled, it has been removed from the platform.

We bash not let hatred speech. We bash not let Islamophobia, antisemitism, oregon immoderate benignant of hatred connected the platform. We privation to physique a level that is harmless for everyone to beryllium and to talk freely. But wrong ineligible boundaries, with respect for 1 another, and wherever radical don't person fearfulness speaking astir what matters to them.

We are continuing to fortify the mechanisms connected however we observe definite atrocious contented internally. We person decidedly had a bigger moderation squad implicit the past mates of months. Currently we're sitting astatine zero backlog successful presumption of atrocious contented oregon nasty contented connected the platform. They'll inactive proceed to effort to station this benignant of nasty contented connected the platform, and we volition proceed to combat it and region it.

Are you mostly pursuing a human-led attack to moderation, arsenic opposed to AI, for example, that would perchance beryllium capable to automate immoderate of that function? How are you reasoning astir contented moderation successful examination to immoderate of the different societal media companies that person automated a batch of that?

Currently it's a manual process. We person contented moderators. They person reports, they look into them, and according to the policies they instrumentality action. Users are capable to study immoderate contented that they see, and they thin to bash that rather fast. So we're capable to drawback immoderate atrocious contented connected the level rather quickly.

Now, to standard we are doing immoderate interior R&D and integration with AI models that are capable to observe but not marque decisions. We privation to beryllium capable to observe thing earlier it is wide and connected the level itself, and past let a quality successful the loop to marque a decision.

There's a batch of contented that tin beryllium identified easily—pornography, et cetera—and that tin beryllium with precocious confidence, and the algorithm tin springiness you that confidence. Probably for this circumstantial benignant of content, we tin person a quarantine queue wherever this contented has archetypal to beryllium reviewed by a human. And if it's not truly against the policy, past it tin go.

This is for delicate material. We're talking things related to CSAM, pornography, explicit hatred speech, and akin content. But we volition ever guarantee that a quality volition marque the last decision, not an algorithm, and let our users to entreaty for immoderate determination that is made and explicate to them wherefore definite things happen.

Users person noticed connected UpScrolled that they cannot really prime Israel arsenic a determination for their posts. I'm funny astir however you are reasoning astir Israel and Palestine fixed however the institution was founded and formed, and whether it was a deliberate determination not to admit Israel from a institution constituent of view.

I personally coded that relation for you arsenic a idiosyncratic not to spot Israel connected the dropdown. Katie, I'm a Palestinian, and I cognize a batch astir what happened. My ancestors, my grandparents, were surviving successful Palestine. They were surviving successful Ṣafad earlier 1948, and they were forced to determination retired and go stateless and roam from 1 state to different successful bid to find a caller place.

They went to Lebanon, they went to Syria, they went yet to Jordan. They tried to instrumentality to Palestine to different cities. That didn't enactment out. They returned to Jordan eventually, and present we bash not person the close of return. I'm not capable to spell to Palestine. I'm not capable to spell backmost to my hometown ever and spot it and sojourn it.

Israel continues to termination radical connected the ground. They proceed to bash atrocious things successful the West Bank, extracurricular of Gaza wherever there's nary Hamas.

You know, I privation to inquire you this question, and it’s a hypothetical question.

Sure.

Would you bent a representation of your perpetrator successful the surviving country knowing each the things that they person done?

Would I bent a photograph of idiosyncratic who had done unspeakable things to my household successful the surviving country of my home? No, I would not.

That's a precise idiosyncratic happening to me. Israel is precisely that, and this is an app that I've built. We are gathering present successful effect to a batch of things, including the atrocious things that Israel has done and continues to do, and having them beryllium connected the app connected that dropdown is not gonna happen.

The much important question is: Is Israel responsible, oregon should it beryllium held responsible, for each the atrocious things that they've been doing for the past 70 years, and particularly successful the past 2 and a fractional years? And not truly fixate connected a silly dropdown wherever the connection Israel is not there.

What benignant of feedback bash you get? What kinds of emails bash you get? I deliberation to instrumentality that benignant of stance overtly, publicly, loudly, unapologetically, is simply a precise antithetic thing. Especially for the CEO of a for-profit company.

I bash person nasty comments, nasty messages from people, and arsenic a institution we person akin communications. That's expected. But we besides person a batch of connection from users who are highly excited, highly proud, and privation to beryllium portion of the imaginativeness and the enactment that we do. That's what matters.

I cognize for a information that radical astir the satellite person changed successful the past 2 years for a batch of reasons. They started to spot things differently, and they started to take things differently. They spot america arsenic a mode retired from each the large tech that is happening, and they privation america to go bigger. That's precisely what we're focusing on, and we’re relying connected their trust.

They are similar each different user. They inactive archer us, “Hey, however astir you present this caller feature? We similar this. We don't similar that.” That's precisely what we privation to perceive from them. So it's healthy, I would say, successful a overmuch bigger mode than it's unhealthy oregon negative.

What bash you privation for UpScrolled implicit the adjacent fewer years? If I speech to you again successful 2 years, what bash you privation to beryllium capable to accidental you've accomplished?

That we are the mainstream societal media platform. Everyone uses UpScrolled and everyone is invited connected UpScrolled and we are not creating this level for circumstantial groups oregon anything.

We're pro-humanity, truthful everyone is welcomed with their views. The lone quality that we person is we're not gonna shadow-ban oregon censor anyone for their thoughts oregon their views.

This is the archetypal measurement successful my idiosyncratic vision. I privation UpScrolled to go large enough, and commencement to physique autarkic integer infrastructure astatine the aforesaid time. And commencement offering that infrastructure for different communities and different radical who are seeking ethical alternatives.

So hopefully we'll get there.

One happening I wanted to marque definite to screen with you was this thought of societal media that is scaled. One that is utilized by millions and millions and millions of radical arsenic opposed to societal media platforms that are overmuch much community-oriented and that pull a definite subset of like-minded people, right?

Bluesky comes to caput for maine arsenic 1 example, wherever I deliberation you person a definite cohort utilizing Bluesky. Then you person definite radical connected X, you person immoderate radical inactive utilizing Facebook. But what I spot is societal media continuing to fragment and for these bubbles to beryllium arsenic opposed to a escaped speech of ideas, which I deliberation was 1 of the large promises of societal media overall.

How bash you spot that? Are you optimistic astir the anticipation for determination to beryllium a broad, escaped speech of ideas?

I judge radical privation a spot wherever they are capable to explicit themselves without the fearfulness of being censored oregon having their contented removed without justification, and arsenic different societal media platforms proceed to enforce these actions, I judge radical volition commencement looking for alternatives organically.

The different happening that is important to item present is the web effect. When definite radical commencement to populate a societal media level oregon societal network, that volition pull the different people. So that's the happening that volition hap organically, adjacent if they don't hold with the principles oregon the vision, oregon adjacent the laminitis of the company, they're determination due to the fact that they privation to perceive what the different radical are saying.

An illustration of that is X. I don't deliberation a batch of radical are large fans of the CEO of X, but they're inactive there.

I deliberation that's astir apt true.

Yeah, but they inactive privation to beryllium determination to perceive what everyone other is talking about.

It tin beryllium hard for maine to wrapper my caput astir it, but you're right, they bash inactive enactment connected X.

We're trying to make thing ethical. So we'll astir apt pull the ethical mindset archetypal and that's OK. But past the different broadside wants to spot what we're talking astir and they volition commencement coming and joining the platform, and that's OK. They'll proceed to usage aggregate platforms for antithetic purposes due to the fact that each of them volition let them to explicit things differently, according to their policies. But it's OK to person aggregate platforms.

We don't privation to bounds radical to 1 level oregon space. They should beryllium capable to determination betwixt them. There should beryllium nary monopoly. But I judge also, from a exertion perspective, astatine immoderate constituent determination volition beryllium immoderate benignant of openness betwixt each these platforms wherever our users are capable to interact from 1 level to the other.

Your Elon Musk examination is apt. People don't person to similar you, they don't needfully adjacent person to similar wherefore you founded the institution to usage the app, which I deliberation is surely existent successful the discourse of him. So you would fundamentally accidental UpScrolled is for anyone.

Absolutely.

We similar to adjacent each amusement with a small crippled that we deliberation is precise clever. It's up to you whether you agree, but it's called Control, Alt, Delete. So I privation to cognize what portion of tech you would emotion to control; what portion would you emotion to alt, truthful change oregon change; and what you would delete, what would you vanquish from the Earth if fixed the opportunity.

You tin beryllium precise wide successful your explanation of tech. I've had immoderate genuinely irrational answers to this question, truthful spell for it.

When you accidental power technology, I deliberation that's a large thing. I'm not a idiosyncratic who wants to power thing successful the world. I deliberation it's incorrect for anyone to power thing really. Because erstwhile a idiosyncratic controls something, past that creates a risk.

So I wouldn't personally beryllium funny successful controlling thing and beryllium liable for not doing it right. I'd similar radical to enactment successful the process.

That is arsenic bully an reply arsenic any. Completely fair. If you could alteration thing astir technology, what would it be?

I would alteration however AI is being utilized nowadays and effort to enactment immoderate guardrails astir utilizing it. I deliberation it's an highly unsafe technology. It's a large technology, don't get maine wrong, but I deliberation it's highly dangerous. I deliberation it makes radical little smart.

You know, kids usage those technologies nowadays to bash things. They don't research. They don't person an opinion. I mean, our generation, my generation, we utilized to spell to Google and that was similar an upgrade from going to the library.

Now kids don't spell to Google successful the archetypal place. They spell to ChatGPT oregon Claude oregon thing and they inquire that question and they instrumentality for granted that it’s a 100 percent close answer. They’ll archer you, “Hey ChatGPT said that.” It’s scary and dangerous.

Would you enactment an property bounds connected AI, oregon would you spell adjacent further than that?

I would alteration the mode AI is designed, and person guardrails, and person radical audit the mode it's built. Currently people, mundane users, don't recognize however OpenAI, however Anthropic are gathering their models. They're conscionable taking it for granted.

I deliberation we should clasp them accountable and archer them to amusement america precisely however they physique these models. And however oregon wherefore they reply the mode they answer, which is simply a precise achromatic container astatine the moment.

What would you delete? Would you get escaped of anything?

It's an absorbing question. I don’t privation to dependable arguable here.

I similar that this is wherever you gully the line.

Yeah. What would you delete?

What would I delete?

Yeah.

Wow, the interviewer becomes the interviewee. Oh, there's truthful galore things I would delete. I mean, conscionable arsenic 1 example, I person a girl and I would astir apt delete YouTube Kids. We made specified a mistake erstwhile we started letting her ticker YouTube Kids, and past we had to pry that iPad retired of her clammy small hands, and it was a nightmare. I mightiness get escaped of that. There are tons of things I deliberation I would astir apt delete. I mightiness delete X. I recognize wherefore you can't accidental that. I mightiness delete Facebook.

So it could beryllium an app?

It could beryllium an app. You could besides delete, say, a relation connected your phone.

I volition delete autocorrect.

Oh, that's a bully one.

I hatred autocorrect. It doesn't close me. It makes maine dependable incorrect each the time. And sometimes they're highly atrocious words. I’m like, “Mom, sorry, I did not mean that, I meant thing else.”

Oh, that's funny. Whenever I effort to write, “fuck” it ever autocorrects to “duck.” That's precise specifically not what I meant.

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